Hello World

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Hello World was created by sigurdV

Waiting for the flood of international philosophers coming here I decided to create an English spoken thread to welcome them :)

Philosophy is (simply put) the Art of asking questions
and Science is the Method of answering questions.

We live in an age where metaphores still is considered knowledge...
But since metaphores can be interpreted as you wish they have to be considered fairy tales and should be outlawed ... replaced with truth.

So what is truth and by what method do we find it?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth

Grrr I got a phone call and have to leave for some errands...
Ill be seeing you later.
28 Sep 2018 16:00 #323

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  • Vacum
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  • Om jag lyckas stoppa tiden, vad gör jag då sen?
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Replied by Vacum on topic Hello World

sigurdV wrote: Waiting for the flood of international philosophers coming here I decided to create an English spoken thread to welcome them :)

Philosophy is (simply put) the Art of asking questions
and Science is the Method of answering questions.

We live in an age where metaphores still is considered knowledge...
But since metaphores can be interpreted as you wish they have to be considered fairy tales and should be outlawed ... replaced with truth.

So what is truth and by what method do we find it?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth

Grrr I got a phone call and have to leave for some errands...
Ill be seeing you later.


Hello Sigge,

Good initiative! I have some international friends, so maybe there will be some activities in English. Meanwhile, I am tempted to answer some of your questions about metaphores and understanding. First, when do we not use metaphores? Well, when we are sure (we cannot be 100% sure of anything, but in common language, we express us in that way when we believe it's likely that the other person will understand), we don't use metaphores. Instead we use terms that we assume are common properties defining our intentions.

But some ideas are difficult to communicate, when the other doesn't share the same vocabulary and terms. How would you describe what cannot be said (Wittgeinstein), or in string theory when you say that a string "vibrate"? Here offers the metaphores the best help available. Suddenly we can speak the unspokable, describe what is just out of reach, and hopefully, achieve a degree of understanding.

/Vacum
"The truth is in here!"
The following user(s) said Thank You: sigurdV
28 Sep 2018 17:50 #324

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Replied by sigurdV on topic Hello World

So one post in English became two posts. And by different people too!
.
Im very tired today... couldnt sleep because of tooth ache
and the day has been spent at the dentists...

Vacum wrote:

sigurdV wrote: Waiting for the flood of international philosophers coming here I decided to create an English spoken thread to welcome them :)

Philosophy is (simply put) the Art of asking questions
and Science is the Method of answering questions.

We live in an age where metaphores still is considered knowledge...

But since metaphores can be interpreted as you wish they have to be considered fairy tales and should be outlawed ... replaced with truth.

So what is truth and by what method do we find it?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth


Hello Sigge,

Good initiative! I have some international friends, so maybe there will be some activities in English. Meanwhile, I am tempted to answer some of your questions about metaphores and understanding.

First, when do we not use metaphores? Well, when we are sure we don't use metaphores (we cannot be 100% sure of anything, but in common language, we express us in that way when we believe it's likely that the other person will understand) . Instead we use terms that we assume are common properties defining our intentions.

But some ideas are difficult to communicate, when the other doesn't share the same vocabulary and terms. How would you describe what cannot be said (Wittgenstein), or in string theory when you say that a string "vibrate"?

Here offers the metaphores the best help available. Suddenly we can speak the unspokable, describe what is just out of reach, and hopefully, achieve a degree of understanding.


/Vacum

WOW! Now we have later to touch on probability as well!
Also I did a slight edit on your post just to facilitate reading :)

Once I made a search for Ancient posts on Truth ...

The result was not encouraging ... The best Asian thinker said that truth is like a clear pond where you can see everything in it... Nice metaphore but revealing lacking logic and semantic insight!

Compare with the following pregnant statement by Aristotle:

Telling the truth is telling it as it is!

And his definition still is the best (and simplest) there is!..

I was happy to see you use the term: UNDERSTANDING!

It needs promotion: Consider Modern Epistemoloy as started by Plato:

Here (roughly) in the words of Clarence Irving Lewis:

Someone, s, KNOWS proposition p IFF (1) s believes that p, (2) p is true, s is justified in believing that p.

KNOWLEDGE is defined by BELIEF , TRUTH and JUSTIFICATION...
Eh... dont they need some clarification?

Knowing what and knowing how... = understanding.

I will leave deeper penetration of the subject and only ASK a question:

Clearly understanding is not the same as belief?
But what is the difference?
Do we need to understand what we believe?

Understanding is KNOWLEDGE and ABILITY ...isnt it?
So why is it sometimes omitted in epistemologal studies?

A cool fact is that Plato seems to have thought that intellectual understanding consists in memories carried over from a previous life ... He lets Socrates draw knowledge out of a slave boy using pointed questions...

As to Wittgenstein we need to notice the distinction between saying and describing: A saying need not be a describing, but a describing is a saying.

So what cant be said? The simplest answer is CONTRADICTIONS.

You can MENTION THEM but if you say them (just like that)
you create something that cant be understood! For instance:

Sayings that cant be said :)

Removing all your contradictory beliefs is a basic act of understanding.
Belief (and enjoyment) in contradiction is a common sign of cognitive malfunction.

03 Oct 2018 16:06 #381

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Replied by sigurdV on topic Hello World

A correction:

// Someone, s, KNOWS proposition p IFF
(1) s believes that p,
(2) p is true,
(3) Is is justified in believing that p.//
03 Oct 2018 16:15 #382

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Replied by sigurdV on topic Hello World

So what IS the situation?

The creator of this forum: KLAMM ... wondered whether our forum (cogniter) needs an English Department? Should he construct it?

I think he should ... but theres no hurry to act.
Bythis event: Forming this thread a minimum action has been taken towards international relations! The first English Spoken Thread within Cogniter :)

Two basic concepts; EXTENSIONALISM and INTENSIONALISM comes to mind... Applied to languages, but also to perspectives of reality.

The first group are languages in which terms are universally substitutable ... a language near to Physics and basic Science.

The second group was first pointed out by: /

/Franz Clemens Honoratus Hermann Brentano (1838 –1917) was an influential German philosopher, psychologist, and priest whose work strongly influenced not only students Edmund Husserl, Sigmund Freud, Tomáš Masaryk, Rudolf Steiner, Alexius Meinong, Carl Stumpf, Anton Marty, Kazimierz Twardowski, and Christian von Ehrenfels, but many others whose work would follow and make use of his original ideas and concepts. //

At bottom we have the distinction between EVENTS and ACTS ... and the idea that theres something special about acts. Not found within events unless the event contains or IS an act.

Im mostly "Concept Dropping" at the moment...
While also trying to drop as many philosophical names as I can Im trying to indicate some fundamental concepts we need to get a better understanding of.

//Brentano is best known for his reintroduction of the concept of intentionality—a concept derived from scholastic philosophy—to contemporary philosophy in his lectures and in his work Psychologie vom empirischen Standpunkt (Psychology from an Empirical Standpoint).

While often simplistically summarised as "aboutness" or the relationship between mental acts and the external world, Brentano defined it as the main characteristic of mental phenomena, by which they could be distinguished from physical phenomena.

Every mental phenomenon, every psychological act has content, is directed at an object (the intentional object).//

Every belief, desire etc. has an object that they are about: the believed, the desired. Brentano used the expression "intentional inexistence" to indicate the status of the objects of thought in the mind.//

You can read more about intentionalism in the following wiki :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentionality

So ABOUTNESS is a characterising factor of intentionalism?

Physical theories are extensional in that they are ABOUT physical reality and NOT about physical theories?

Theories ABOUT extensional theories BUT NOT ABOUT THE THEORY ITSELF is one way of looking at what we and Bertrand Russell probably means by "extensional systems".

Natural languages seems to have both qualities and since Im fond of having examples to aid theorethical and philosoiphical thinking I will give some known and also some unknown examples.

Lets begin with an unknown example ...let the spring breezes blow :)

First a little wordlist since we will translate a Swedish Statement into English.

Detta = This
är = is
engelska = English.

The Swedish proposition is a FALSE PROPOSITION!
Maybe its more exciting that way?

1) Detta är engelska.

The translation (on the other hand) seems to be true!

2) This is English.

And now we can ask how it is POSSIBLE that a "correct extensional" translation of a FALSE proposition can result in a TRUE proposition.

Thisa example is not to my knowledge found in literature ... so there is NO DISCUSSION going on about it. My question is (as usual) not answered.

Perhaps the distinction extensional/intensional has something to do with this translation problem?
04 Oct 2018 03:03 #385

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Replied by sigurdV on topic Hello World

My interests are not restricted to logic and semantics.
My Childhood love was Cosmology...
And today Im open to any Intellectually Interesting Topic ;)

// Einsteins Elevator (Part Two).

After discussing the Equivalence of gravity and acceleration,
In Einsteins Elevator (Part One)
we now come to the principle of Relativity ...saying that:

There is no way for you to decide on your (constant) movement without making direct or indirect comparisations with "outside" objects.

Very often spaceships (or ppl in spacesuits) passing each other with constant speed in the middle of intergalactic space is used as an example ^.

Both captains has the right to assume his ship to be at rest
and that the other ship doing all the movement...

No??!

Forget about the other ship , we shall now do the impossible
and find out if our own ship/elevator IS AT ABSOLUTE rest or not...

1) Suppose the ship is at rest ... then moving a clock back and forth an equally long distance with the same speed in any direction will give the same result: There is no privileged direction.

2) Suppose the ship is moving with constant speed (forwards to make this simple) , then as you move the clock forwards it will slow down an extra amount because of the ship movement...

And when the clock moves backwards it will speed up an extra amount because of the ship movement...We have found a privileged direction!

If you compare with the other possible directions you will find that the direction ninety degrees from the travelling direction is the ONLY direction that doesnt at all affect the back and forth moving clock differently.

So at least IN PRINCIPLE
can The Captain determine if his ship is at absolute rest or not!
Relativity Theory is therefore in need of some adjustments...

See you out there ;)
/Captain Nemo. //
05 Oct 2018 00:00 #399

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Replied by sigurdV on topic Hello World

You wake up with an infernal head ache!
Clearly you had a few drinks too many yesterday...

But where are you?
And who is the white haired man standing by your bed?

-Welcome to Nautilus IV! He says...

... This ^ is how most crew members began their epic journey...

But we have no time for subtelty so heres a video...
________________________________

Meet Captain Nemo
_________________________

We see outer space, travels faster.
We approach a solar system...yes its ours...
Passing Jupiter ,the Asteroid belt ,Mars and the Earth.

Continuing towards Venus through its hellish atmosphere.
Seeing a huge spaceship doing fine at a temperature of half a thousand degrees celcius.

Were getting closer and approaches the name "Nautilus three" on its hull, and we are inside it into a luxuous Cabin where its crew stands along its walls... In the middle of the room we see a white haired man
holding a crying womans hands gently... Trying to comfort her.

Leaves her and walks towards a screen where a conference seems to be going on ... The voices suddenly can be heard and we hear the leaders of the Earth assemblied in the united Nation Building ...They are discussing the plans for Capturing Captain Nemo!

A fleet of ships are now on its way to the moon to find the colony believed to exist there...

At the screen now ,in front of it , lifts a globe of glass and Nemo holds it up and looks at the small white flakes whirling inside ...

-A venusian childs toy...(Nemo says) - Indicating there once was a civilisation here that turned their Paradise into Hell... by burning fossil fuels. (tsk tsk)

He sighs, looks at the screen... at his crew ...at the crying man
Now held by two strong crewmen and takes his last walk in life,
the unshielded walk out to the surface of Venus...
____________________________________________

Meet Captain Nemo
___________________
Sitting with tears in his eys..
After seeing his fathers death on the screen...
Nemo's son has the mother of all headaches!

In the whirling mental storm he remembers
"his" last steps and remembers his last thought:
" Son Im coming to you !
05 Oct 2018 00:19 #400

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Replied by sigurdV on topic Hello World

So am I on a literary spree?
Lets go back to REALLY OLD TALES:


VOLUSPA
The Wise-Woman's Prophecy

INTRODUCTORY NOTE

At the beginning of the collection in the Codex Regius stands the Voluspo, the most famous and important of all the Eddic poems.

The general plan is fairly clear. Othin, chief of the gods, always conscious of impending disaster and eager for knowledge, calls on a certain "Volva," or wise-woman, presumably bidding her rise from the grave.

She first tells him of the past, of the creation of the world, the beginning of years, the origin of the dwarfs, of the first man and woman, of the world-ash Yggdrasil, and of the first war, between the gods and the Wanes.

Then she turns to the real prophesy, the disclosure of the final destruction of the gods.

This final battle, in which fire and flood overwhelm heaven and earth as the gods fight with their enemies, is the great fact in Norse mythology;

the phrase describing it, ragna rök, "the fate of the gods," has become familiar...

A new and beautiful world is to rise on the ruins of the old; Baldr comes back, and "fields unsowed bear ripened fruit" (stanzas 59-66).
www.sacred-texts.com/neu/poe/poe03.htm

My interest is only in the OLDEST surviving fragments describing GENESIS!

1. Hearing I ask | from the holy races,
From Heimdall's sons, | both high and low;
Thou wilt, Valfather, | that well I relate
Old tales I remember | of men long ago.

2. I remember yet | the giants of yore,
Who gave me bread | in the days gone by;
Nine worlds I knew, | the nine in the tree
With mighty roots | beneath the mold.

[The worlds of the gods (Asgarth),

of the Wanes (Vanaheim, cf. stanza 21 and note),

of the elves (Alfheim),

of men (Mithgarth),

of the giants (Jotunheim),

of fire (Muspellsheim, cf. stanza 47 and note),

of the dark elves (Svartalfaheim),

of the dead (Niflheim), and presumably of the dwarfs (perhaps Nithavellir, cf. stanza 37 and note, but the ninth world is uncertain).

The tree: the world-ash Yggdrasil, [fp. 4]

symbolizing the universe; cf. Grimnismol, 29-35 and notes, wherein Yggdrasil is described at length.]

So far what has been described is the world AFTER GENESIS ... But now it comes:

3. Of old was the age | when Ymir lived;
Sea nor cool waves | nor sand there were;
Earth had not been, | nor heaven above,
But a yawning gap, | and grass nowhere.

4. Then Bur's sons lifted | the level land,
Mithgarth the mighty | there they made;
The sun from the south | warmed the stones of earth,
And green was the ground | with growing leeks.

5. The sun, the sister | of the moon, from the south
Her right hand cast | over heaven's rim;
No knowledge she had | where her home should be,
The moon knew not | what might was his,
The stars knew not | where their stations were.

Here we stop...

Concentrationg on Verse 3 :

The NORSE GENESIS!

The earth was not
Nor was the heaven above
There was a YAWNING GAP
But there was no grass..

Theres similarities to the Creation Story in the Bible.

Check out THE YAWNING GAP = The DEEP

Shall we see it as the way for primitive man to mention gravity? The gap is NOT oriented upwards!
FALLING definitely takes place downwards...

I wont delve into all the scholarly work done on the Norse Gods ... Ill just mention that they appear to be copied from THRACIAN GODS!

Not very surprising since the scandinavians were germans who in their turn were ...ahem ... ppl in their turn coming from the south and in their turn originally from ANATOLIA ... Where around 10000 BC farming originated and spread in all directions.

To keep track of how those Ancient Migrations carried culture all over the world is a gigantic task...

Im just an interested bystander...

Youre Swedish? Then I bet you know almost nothing about the ANCIENT SWEDISH LORE AND CUSTOMS!

Its traditional for invaders to try to disconnect the invaded from knowing about their past...

They want a land of sheep and not of wolves.


..
05 Oct 2018 16:21 #410

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